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 Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14?

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Cyril Shishkin
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Date d'inscription : 18/08/2006

MessageSujet: Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14?   Mar 29 Aoû 2006 - 19:30

I read about 480 available guns " Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14 " in May
1940 (on other sources of only 83 guns).
But not in one of artillery regiments about which I know, I have not found these guns. These guns were not used? Or them did not
separate from " Canon de 155 L mle 1877 Bange "?

Best regards
Cyril
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MessageSujet: Re: Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14?   Jeu 7 Sep 2006 - 0:29

Hi,

I have seen you have found the difference between the two models on your forum.

In the book "France 1940 l'armement terrestre" author Stéphane Ferrard, editor ETAI ISBN 2-7268-8380-X, it is written:

Existing guns at 02.09.1939
Canon de 155 L mle 1877 Bange : 743
Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14 : 83


mobilized guns at 02.09.1939
Canon de 155 L mle 1877 Bange : --
Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14 : 366


mobilized guns at 30.04.1940
Canon de 155 L mle 1877 Bange : --
Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14 : 480



in order to complete the information below in the forum, i can give you the composition of 151, 152, 153, 156, 163, 165, 168, 169 RAP. These RAP with the 150, 155 , 159, 160, 161, 166, 168, 169, 170 RAP were not in duty within the blockhaus of the Maginot Line.
"Hommes et ouvrages de la ligne Maginot" tome 2, jean-Yves Mary, Alain Hohnadel ISBN 2-908182-97-1.

I've translated your forum and i think you make a great work.
regards,

Jean-François

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MessageSujet: Re: Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14?   Jeu 7 Sep 2006 - 9:59

FCM36 a écrit:

In the book "France 1940 l'armement terrestre" author Stéphane Ferrard, editor ETAI ISBN 2-7268-8380-X, it is written:

Existing guns at 02.09.1939
Canon de 155 L mle 1877 Bange : 743
Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14 : 83


mobilized guns at 02.09.1939
Canon de 155 L mle 1877 Bange : --
Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14 : 366


mobilized guns at 30.04.1940
Canon de 155 L mle 1877 Bange : --
Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14 : 480

I see here very inconsistent data. Not clearly - how many was all guns "Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14"?
How much I knew these guns are armed only 113e and 114e RALH. Therefore number 83 of a gun looks more correct.

It would be very interesting to learn structure RAP. In different sources different data on these regiment are given.
Now I имю the following information on RAP (it would be interesting to compare to yours)

150e RAP (SF Rohrbach)
- 8x 120mm L Mle1878 de Bange
- 8x 145/155mm L Mle1916 Saint-Chamond
- 8x 155mm C Mle1915 Saint-Chamond
- 8x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 16x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider

151e RAP (SF Thionville)
- 8x 120mm L Mle1878 De Bange
- 20x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
- 2x 220mm L Mle1917 Schneider
- 2x 240mm L Mle1884 Saint-Chamond

152e RAP (XLII CAF - SF Crusnes)
- 44x 120mm L Mle1878 De Bange
- 4x 155mm C Mle1915 Saint-Chamond

153e RAP (SF Boulay, ???III/153 - SF Faulquemont???)
- 36x 75mm Mle1897
- 8x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
- 20x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
- 12x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider
- 4x 240mm L Mle1884 Saint-Chamond

154 RAP (SF Dauphine)*

155e RAP (103 DIF)
- 20x 75mm Mle1897
- 4x 75mm Mle1897 or Mle1897/33 used in the casemates
- 8x 145/155mm L Mle1916 Saint-Chamond
- 8x 150mm T Mle1917 Fabry trench mortar
- 12x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 15x ex-German guns for the former forts of Strasbourg and Mutzig

156e RAP (SF Haguenau)
- 12x 75mm Mle1897
- 8x 120mm L Mle1878 De Bange
- 4x 145mm L Mle1916 Saint-Chamond
- 9x 150mm T Fabry
- 24x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider

157e RAP (SF Alpes-Maritimes)*
- 120mm L - ?
- 155mm L - ?
- 220mm L - ?

158e RAP (SF Alpes-Maritimes)*
- 155mm C - ?
- 155mm L - ?
- 220mm L - ?
- 150mm T - ?

159e RAP (II/159 - 105 DIF, III-IV/159 - SF Altkirch-Franken, V - DS Belfort, VI/159 - XLIV CAF, VII/159 - SF Montbeliard)
- 20x 75mm Mle1897
- 14x 75mm Mle1897 or Mle1897/33 used in the casemates
- 12x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
- 6x 150mm T Mle1917 Fabry trench mortar
- 12x 155mm C Mle1915 Saint-Chamond
- 16x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 8x 8x 155mm L Mle1916 Saint Chamond
- 4x 240mm L Mle1884 Saint-Chamond
I/159e RAP = became I/170e RAP on August 29, 1939. It is also manning the artillery positions built in 1937 by the 188e RA between Muespach and Bettlach.
Positions of Willerhof and Eichwald for 155mm L Mle1916 Saint Chamond guns and positions of Breitenhaag and Strengwald for 240mm L Mle1884 Saint-Chamond guns.
[2 batteries]
II/159e RAP = SF de Mulhouse and 105e DIF on March 16, 1940
- 3rd battery: 8x 75mm Mle1897 and 4x 155mm C Mle1915 Saint-Chamond
- 22nd and 23rd batteries created during 1940: 12x 47mm naval guns and 6x 150mm
T Mle1917 Fabry trench mortar]
III/159e RAP = SD Altkirch
- 4th battery
- 5th battery
6x 75mm Mle1897/33 (STG casemates from the Sierentz area), 8x 75mm Mle1897, 4x155mm C Mle1915 Saint-Chamond and 4x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
IV/159e RAP = SD Altkirch and 45e CAF on May 27, 1940
- 6th battery: 8x 75mm Mle1897/33 (for STG casemates)
- 21st battery created in October 1939: 8x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
V/159e RAP = RF de Belfort and later 44e CAF
- 7th battery
- 8th battery
- 9th battery
==> artillery garrisons of the Belfort forts and Giromagny fort (75mm and 155mm guns from before 1914 under turret)
- 13th battery: moved from VII/159e RAP to V/159e RAP on February 1940 - 4x
155mm L Mle1877 de Bange and 4x 155mm C Mle1915 Saint Chamond. In the VII/159e
RAP it is replaced by the 111e batterie d'instruction.
VI/159e RAP = RF de Belfort and later 44e CAF on March 16, 1940
- 10th battery
- 11th battery
==> artillery positions of the Willerhof area: 8x 155mm L Mle1916 Saint Chamond and 4x 240mm L Mle1884 Saint-Chamond guns.
VII/159e RAP = SD de Montbйliard
- 12th battery: 4x 75mm Mle1897, 4x 120mm Mle1878 de Bange (replaced later by 4x105mm L Mle1913 Schneider) and 8x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
- 13th battery: 4x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange and 4x 155mm C Mle1915 Saint Chamond. Transferred to V/159e RAP on February 1940 and replaced by an instruction battery (111e batterie d'instruction).

160e RAP (102 DIF) ????
- 155mm L De Bange
- 120mm De Bange Mle1877
- 155mm Saint-Chamond

161e RAP (10-11/161 - SF Flandres, I/161 - SF Escaut, II-III/161 - 101 DIF )
- 36x 75mm Mle1897 [including 12 guns used as AT guns]
- 1x 75mm Mle1897 and 3x Mle1897/33 used in the casemates
- 12x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
- 24x 120mm L Mle1878 de Bange
- 24x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 1x 155mm GPF
I/161e RAP = SF de l'Escaut and SD des Flandres
- 1st battery: 4x 75mm Mle1897 and 4x 120mm L Mle1878 de Bange
- 2nd battery: 4x 120mm L Mle1878 de Bange, 4x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange and 4x105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
- 3rd battery: 4x 75mm Mle1897 and 4x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
II/161e RAP = SF de Maubeuge (with 87e RIF) and later 101e DIF (January 1, 1940)
- 4th battery: 4x 75mm Mle1897 and 4x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 5th battery: 4x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider and 8x 120mm L Mle1878 de Bange
- 6th battery: 2x 75mm Mle1897, 2x 75mm Mle1897/33 and 4x 155mm L Mle1877 de
Bange
III/161e RAP = SF de Maubeuge (with 84e RIF) and later 101e DIF January 1,1940)
- 7th battery: 4x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider and 8x 120mm L Mle1878 de Bange
- 8th battery: 8x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 9th battery: 7x 75mm Mle1897 and 1x 75mm Mle1897/33
IV/161e RAP = formed in October 1939 for the SF des Flandres. Captured in Dunkirk on June 4, 1940.
- 10th battery: ?
- 11th battery: 12x 75mm Mle1897 used as AT guns

162 RAP (I/162 - SF Savoie, II-III/162 - SF Dauphine)*

163e RAP (SF Faulquemont)
I/163e RAP
- 12x 75mm Mle1897
- 12x 155mm C Mle1916 Saint-Chamond
II/163e RAP
- 24x 75mm Mle1897
III/163e RAP
- 12x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 12x 155mm L Mle1916

164e RAP (1/164 - SD Rhone, SF Savoie)
- 12 x 65mm Mle 1906
- 18 x 75mm Mle 1897
- 26 x 95mm
- 20 x 105mm Mle 1913
- 10 x 120L Mle 1878
- 32 x 155L Mle 1877
- 4 x 155L Mle 1916
- 12x 155mm C Mle1915 Saint-Chamond

165e RALGP (3A)
- 2 x 75 anti-tank,
- 24 x 120L Mle 1878,
- 12 x 220C Mle 1916,
- 8 x 280 PF
- 2 x 370 MF

166e RAP (SF Sarre)
- 8x 75mm Mle1897
- 12x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
- 9x 150mm T Mle1917 Fabry trench mortar
- 12x 155mm C Mle1915 Saint-Chamond
- 8x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 8x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider
(But there is such information
I/166e and II/166e RAP
- 16x 75mm Mle1897
- 8x 155mm C Mle1916 Saint-Chamond
- 12x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
- 4x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider)

167e RAP (SF Alpes-Maritimes)
- 10 x 65mm Mle 06
- 4 x 105L Mle 1913
- 30 x 155L Mle 1877
- 12 x 155C St-Chamond

168e RAP (XLIII CAF - SF Vosges)
- 32 x 65 Mle 1906,
- 8 x 75 Mle 97,
- 4 x 75 Mle 33,
- 24 x 155L Mle 1877
- 16 x 155C St-Chamond.

I/169e RAP (SF Montmedy)
- 8x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider
- 4x 120mm L Mle1878 De Bange
- 24x105mm L Mle1913 Schneider

170e RAP (I/170 - 104 DIF, II/170 - SF Jura Central)
- 12 x 75mm Mle 1897
- 4 x 120L Mle 1878
- 4 x 155C St-Chamond
- 4 x 155L Mle 1877
- 4 x 370 mm Mle 13 Filloux


*Armee de Alpes sector:
In SD Rhone, SF Savoie, SF Dauphine, SF Alpes-Maritimes there were groups of artillery from different regiments. I could collect the information only as a whole on sectors:

SD Rhone
12x 155 C mle 1917 Schneider

SF Savoie
12x 65 M mle 1906
4x Canon Court de 105 M mle 1919 Schneider
15x 75 mle 1897
20x 105 L mle 1913 Schneider
76x 120mm L Mle1878 De Bange
65x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
12x 155 C mle 1915 St. Chamond
2x 145 L mle 1916 St. Chamond
4x 155 L mle 1916 St. Chamond

SF Dauphine
12x 65 M mle 1906
36x 155 L mle ??????

SF Alpes-Maritimes
12x 65 M mle 1906
4x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
20x 120mm L Mle1878 De Bange
30x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
12x 155 C mle 1915 St. Chamond
4x 220 L mle 1917

The 95mm guns on the Maginot Line were two in II/162e RAP, ten in III/162e RAP plus two in casemates of the 11e Batterie d'Ouvrage of 162e RAP; there were four in I/154e RAP, four in III/154e RAP, four in I/164e RAP, eight in II/164e RAP and eight in IV/164e RAP.

It would be very interesting to learn as about use of 47-mm and 65-mm of coastal guns. Though they were used in casemates, they administratively were a part RAP. But I cannot find data on use of these guns yet

Regards
Cyril
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MessageSujet: Re: Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14?   Jeu 7 Sep 2006 - 13:39

hello Cyril,


Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

I see here very inconsistent data. Not clearly - how many was all guns "Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14"?
How much I knew these guns are armed only 113e and 114e RALH. Therefore number 83 of a gun looks more correct.
I agree with you for the 113e and 114e RALH. But it seems possible that some 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange of the 151 RAP are 155mm L Mle1877/14. No further information available.

i quoted the RAP with differences. Nota that this data are the situation for the 10th may 1940.


Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

151e RAP (SF Thionville)
- 8x 120mm L Mle1878 De Bange
- 20x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
- 2x 220mm L Mle1917 Schneider
- 2x 240mm L Mle1884 Saint-Chamond
151e RAP (SF Thionville)
- 8x 120mm L Mle1878 De Bange
- 20x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
- 2x 220mm L Mle1917 Schneider
- 2x 240mm L Mle1884 Saint-Chamond
-12x 10 cm ex-German guns for the former forts Thionville with gunners and 4x 10 cm without gunners



Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

153e RAP (SF Boulay, ???III/153 - SF Faulquemont???)
- 36x 75mm Mle1897
- 8x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
- 20x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
- 12x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider
- 4x 240mm L Mle1884 Saint-Chamond
153e RAP (SF Boulay,III/153 - SF Faulquemont)
- 36x 75mm Mle1897 used as Anti-Tank (AC in french)
- 4x 75mm Mle1897 or Mle1897/33 used in the casemates MOM or STG
- 8x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
- 20x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
- 12x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider
- 4x 240mm L Mle1884 Saint-Chamond
For this RAP, the III/153 is set in the « fortified sector » Faulquemont begining september 1939. and returned in « fortified sector » Boulay 25th september 1939.




Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

155e RAP (103 DIF)
- 20x 75mm Mle1897
- 4x 75mm Mle1897 or Mle1897/33 used in the casemates
- 8x 145/155mm L Mle1916 Saint-Chamond
- 8x 150mm T Mle1917 Fabry trench mortar
- 12x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 15x ex-German guns for the former forts of Strasbourg and Mutzig
155e RAP (103 DIF)
- 20x 75mm Mle1897 used as Anti-Tank (AC in french)
- 4x 75mm Mle1897 or Mle1897/33 used in the casemates MOM or STG
- 8x 145/155mm L Mle1916 Saint-Chamond
- 8x 150mm T Mle1917 Fabry trench mortar
- 12x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 15x 10 cm ex-German guns for the former forts of Strasbourg and Mutzig



Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

160e RAP (102 DIF) ????
- 155mm L De Bange
- 120mm De Bange Mle1877
- 155mm Saint-Chamond
160e RAP (102 DIF)
- 12x 75mm Mle 1897 used as Anti-Tank (AC in french)
- 4x 75mm Mle 1897 or Mle 1897/33 used in the casemates MOM or STG
- 24x 150mm T Mle1917 Fabry trench mortar
- 24x 105 L mm Mle 1913 Schneider
- 16x 155 mm Saint-Chamond
- 6x 155mm L De Bange

The 2 & 3 groups or II/160 RAP and III/160 RAP if you prefer, are set under the command of the 102 DIF the 16th January 1940.



Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

163e RAP (SF Faulquemont)
I/163e RAP
- 12x 75mm Mle1897
- 12x 155mm C Mle1916 Saint-Chamond
II/163e RAP
- 24x 75mm Mle1897
III/163e RAP
- 12x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 12x 155mm L Mle1916
163e RAP (SF Faulquemont)
- 28x 75mm Mle1897 used as Anti-Tank (AC in french)
- 10x 75mm Mle1897 or Mle1897/33 used in the casemates MOM or STG
- 12x 155mm C Mle 1915 Saint-Chamond
- 16x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
- 12x 155mm L Mle1916 Saint-Chamond
- 4x 155mm L Mle 1918 Schneider



Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

165e RALGP (3A)
- 2 x 75 anti-tank,
- 24 x 120L Mle 1878,
- 12 x 220C Mle 1916,
- 8 x 280 PF
- 2 x 370 MF
165e RAP (3th Army)
- 75mm Mle1897 used as Anti-Tank (AC in french)
- 24 x 120 mm L Mle 1878,
- 12 x 220mm C Mle 1916
- 8 x 280 mm C Mdle 1914 Schneider PF
- 4 x 370 mm Filloux MF
- 50x 75mm T Mle1896
Add to these guns 74 guns from ex-germans forts of Metz (10 cm, 15 cm)



Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

166e RAP (SF Sarre)
- 8x 75mm Mle1897
- 12x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
- 9x 150mm T Mle1917 Fabry trench mortar
- 12x 155mm C Mle1915 Saint-Chamond
- 8x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 8x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider
(But there is such information
I/166e and II/166e RAP
- 16x 75mm Mle1897
- 8x 155mm C Mle1916 Saint-Chamond
- 12x 155mm L Mle1877 De Bange
- 4x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider)
166e RAP (SF Sarre)
- 8x 75mm Mle1897 used as Anti-Tank (AC in french)
- 12x 105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
- 9x 150mm T Mle1917 Fabry trench mortar
- 12x 155mm C Mle1915 Saint-Chamond
- 8x 155mm L Mle1877 de Bange
- 8x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider




Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

168e RAP (XLIII CAF - SF Vosges)
- 32 x 65 Mle 1906,
- 8 x 75 Mle 97,
- 4 x 75 Mle 33,
- 24 x 155L Mle 1877
- 16 x 155C St-Chamond.
168e RAP (XLIII CAF - SF Vosges)
- 15 x 65 Mle 1906,
- 8 x 75 Mle 97 used as Anti-Tank (AC in french)
- 4 x 75 Mle1897 or Mle1897/33 used in the casemates MOM or STG
- 16 x 155L Mle 1877
- 16 x 155C Mle 1915 St-Chamond
- 8 x 155C Mle 1917 Schneider




Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

I/169e RAP (SF Montmedy)
- 8x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider
- 4x 120mm L Mle1878 De Bange
- 24x105mm L Mle1913 Schneider
169e RAP (SF Montmedy)
- 10 x 75 Mle1897 or Mle1897/33 used in the casemates MOM or STG
- 8x 155mm L Mle1918 Schneider
- 4x 120mm L Mle1878 De Bange
- 24x105mm L Mle1913 Schneider




Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

170e RAP (I/170 - 104 DIF, II/170 - SF Jura Central)
- 12 x 75mm Mle 1897
- 4 x 120L Mle 1878
- 4 x 155C St-Chamond
- 4 x 155L Mle 1877
- 4 x 370 mm Mle 13 Filloux
170e RAP (I/170 - 104 DIF, II/170 - SF Jura Central)
- 22 x 75mm Mle 1897 used as Anti-Tank (AC in french)
- 4 x 120L Mle 1878 de Bange
- 12 x 155C Mle 1915 St-Chamond
- 10 x 155L Mle 1877 de Bange
- 4x 90 mm Mle 1877 de Bange
- 8 x 155C Mle 1917Schneider




Cyril Shishkin a écrit:

It would be very interesting to learn as about use of 47-mm and 65-mm of coastal guns. Though they were used in casemates, they administratively were a part RAP. But I cannot find data on use of these guns yet
i found that 725 guns of 47-mm and 65-mm of coastal guns were given by the French Navy. The 47 mm were put in the casemates and the 65 mm put outiside. No more details.

regards

Jean-François

sources : same as written in the others message.

If you are interested i can scan the pages of the book, but it will take a long, long time.
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MessageSujet: Re: Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14?   Jeu 7 Sep 2006 - 13:44

i forgot:

I have no informations about the RAP in the Alpes.
I have 3 books about the Maginot Line. Normally a fouth should issue about Maginot line in the Alpes


http://livres.histoireetcollections.com/themes/4/l-encyclopedie-de-l-armee-francaise/1.html
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MessageSujet: Re: Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14?   Jeu 7 Sep 2006 - 17:41

Thanks, for specifications of structure RAP. I long collected the information about RAP from different sources (I too badly know English to tell more in detail, but it was heavy) and not all sources were correct.

And I have found, that 90 coastal 65-mm of guns have been allocated French Navy. So 47mm guns was 635. But I managed to count on Maginot Line only about 280 47-mm of guns of different types. Or I incorrectly considered, or not all guns were used.
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MessageSujet: Re: Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14?   Ven 13 Aoû 2010 - 13:52

Bonjour,
Il est à noter que ce canon fut aussi utilisé sur Bulson lors de l'attaque allemande du 13 Mai 1940.
Positions sur la cote de Bulson - Cheveuges.
Très bon canon au demeurant au niveau précision, on peut juste lui reprocher son recul impressionnant.
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MessageSujet: Re: Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14?   Sam 14 Aoû 2010 - 23:20

Bonsoir,

Voici une photo de M. Alexandre Jacky, son Papa est à Cheval sur son canon. Les hommes n'ont pas encore reçu leurs dotations en équipement, je pense que c'est le début de la guerre. Pour la seconde c'est notre fameux canon..... Là l'équipement est total, on peut penser Mars-Avril 1940.

http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/15/52/93/34/_alexa10.jpg

http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/15/52/93/34/_alexa12.jpg

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Date d'inscription : 02/12/2007

MessageSujet: Re: Canon de 155 L mle 1877/14?   Mar 31 Aoû 2010 - 11:46

Bonjour Séb,

pour moi, le canon sur la 2e photo est un canon de 120L .

cordialement,

Steph
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